Nirodbaran read out Tagore's letter to Nishikanto, in which Tagore says that Nishikanto's expression and rhythm are of a very high order and that he is a real artist but he complains of one thing - lack of variety: Nishikanto is like a one stringed lyre while the poetic mind demands a variety of tunes. Tagore quotes the Upanishad's " Raso vai sah" (He is verily the Delight.") and says that the poet's mind enters into everything.
SRI AUROBINDO: ( After keeping silent for a while): It really comes to this: "You can't be a great poet unless you write like me!"( After a short pause) Take, for instance, Francis Thompson's "Hound of Heaven". How many people understand and appreciate it? Does it follow that Thompson is not a great poet? Milton is not understood by many. He is not a great poet then?
NIRODBARAN: Tagore doesn't raise the question of understanding in this letter. He demands variety.
SRI AUROBINDO: What does it matter if there is no variety? Homer has written only on war and action. Can Tagore say that he is a greater poet than Homer? Sappho wrote only on love: is she not a great poet? Milton also has no variety and yet he is one of the greatest poets. Mirabai has no variety either and she is still great.
PURANI: What about the Upanishads themselves? They have only one strain.
SRI AUROBINDO: Shakespeare too has his limitations.
PURANI: All these people are trying to make art and literature democratic. They want them to be available to the masses, the proletariat.
NIRODBARAN: Tagore doesn't mean that here. He lays stress on various sides of life as necessary parts of art. Otherwise art is like a one stringed lyre.
SRI AUROBINDO: But why should a great poet write on everything - even on matters in which he is not interested? People who are leading a spiritual life naturally express the truth and experience of that life. And do the masses appreciate poetry? I think I told you the story of a Spainyard, a commercial man, who was my brother Manmohan's friend. Whenever he came to his room he saw books on Milton lying on table. He cried out, "What is this Milton, Milton? Can you eat Milton?" (Laughter)
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NIRODBARAN: Poetry without variety becomes, according to Tagore, limited, monotonous.
SRI AUROBINDO: What does it matter? Greatness of poetry
doesn't depend on that but on whether the thing that has been
created is great or not. Browning has a lot of variety. Can you say
that he is a greater poet than Milton?
NIRODBARAN: No, but if a poet combines height, depth and
variety, he reaches perfection.
SRI AUROBINDO:
That poet doesn't exist: and no poet is perfect. As I said, even Shakespeare has his limitations.
NIRODBARAN: Amal says that Yeats is a greater poet than A. E,
I think it is because of Yeats' variety.
SRI AUROBINDO: No, it is because of his more perfect poetic
style and expression.
NIRODBARAN: Tagore means to say that everybody must have
variety like himself. Nishikanto saw in a vision that Tagore was
satirising Nishikanto's expressions like "light-fountain" before people and saying, "What is this light-fountain?"
PURANI: But why? When he first wrote "Breaking of the fountains dream" he had to face the same criticism.
NIRODBARAN: People say after reading our poems, "What is
this God and God and God in every poem?"
SRI AUROBINDO: What else do they expect us to write about?
NIRODBARAN: We say about them, "What is all this love, love,
love?"
SRI AUROBINDO: What is wrong with love if they can express
it with poetic feeling and power? They are not leading the spiritual
life.
NIRODBARAN: The only objection to limiting oneself to a
single theme is that its appeal becomes circumscribed and not universal.
SRI AUROBINDO: Do you mean to say that poetry is under-
stood and appreciated by all? How many appreciate "The Hound of
Heaven"?
PURANI: That is the modern socialistic theory. These Socialist
poets say poetry must be understood by the masses. They say
Spender is very popular.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Popular? I thought these modem poets had
a very restricted audience.
PURANI: I think so too.
SRI AUROBINDO:
If you want poetry to be appreciated by all,
why stop with the masses? Why not the hill-tribes and children too?
If you speak of popular poets, Martin Tupper was a very popular
poet at one time but nobody remembers him now. So with every
popular poet. Longfellow, for instance: his poem with the line, "Life
is real, life is earnest" was in everybody's mouth and in every
schoolbook. Everyone understood him and got the Rasa.
NIRODBARAN: It has been translated into Bengali.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes? By Hem Banerji?
NIRODBARAN: I don't know by
whom.
SATYENDRA: We had to commit it to memory.
SRI AUROBINDO: But now? Nobody reads Longfellow. He is
quite forgotten.
PURANI: The Socialists themselves object to Longfellow's line: "Learn to labour and to wait." They won't wait.
SRI AUROBINDO: No, it should rather be: "Learn to labour
and be dictated to."
` PURANI: That should be Stalin's motto, but he himself doesn't labour.
SRI AUROBINDO: Oh no, he labours tremendously but to
dictate. So in Stalin's case the line should be: "Learn to labour and
to dictate." (Laughter)
{After a little time) This poetic theory about variety and mass appeal
boils down to this, that if you have expression and rhythm, you
should not only write on things which you feel within you and what you are
interested in, you should not only express what is experienced in your inner
consciousness and is true to your own self, but you should also express things that don't interest you, you should write in the romantic, erotic, classical, realistic styles for the sake of
variety and for the masses. It looks rather absurd.
NIRODBARAN: I heard a humorous story from X about the
judgment of a critic. That critic is one of his relatives. She appreciates Nishikanto very much and says, "After all, there is someone
after Tagore." About X's poems she says, "Yes, they are very good,
they are very interesting, etc." X says, "I am not a fool so as not to
know what it means." (Sri Aurobindo laughed.) What X did was to send her, under Nishikanto's name, a printed poem of his own
, which he has quoted in his proposed book of rhythm. As it was in
printed form, he thought she would take it for Nishikanto's and she
did. She was simply in ecstasy over it. X said to me, "See, such are
the critics. How they go by the name!" (Sri Aurobindo enjoyed the
story very much and laughed hilariously.)
PURANI: Tagore himself did the same thing at the beginning
of his poetic career when people were abusing him. He wrote
those poems called Bhanu Sinha's songs and as soon as they
came out people were enthusiastic. They were made to think that
Bhanu Sinha was some unrecognised Bengali poet of Chandidas's
time.
SRI AUROBINDO: They are fine poems. I hear he has stopped
publishing them.
NIRODBARAN: We had once heard from you that Blake is
greater than Shakespeare.
SRI AUROBINDO: I didn't say that. It is Housman who says
Blake has more pure poetry than Shakespeare.
NIRODBARAN: What does he mean by that?
SRI AUROBINDO: He means that Blake's poetry is not vital or
mental, it is not intellectual but comes from beyond the mind,
expressing mystic or spiritual experiences.
NIRODBARAN: Can one really compare Blake and
Shakespeare? They have two quite different spheres. But if Blake
has more pure poetry, is he greater?
SRI AUROBINDO: Shakespeare is greater in some ways, Blake
in other ways. Shakespeare is greater in that he has a larger
poetic power and more creative force, while Blake is more expressive.
NIRODBARAN: What difference do you intend to make
between "creative" and "expressive"?
SRI AUROBINDO: "Creative" is something which brings up a
convincing picture of life, sets before us a whole living situation of
the Spirit. "Expressive" is just that which communicates feeling,
vision or experience. In Francis Thompson's "Hound of Heaven",
for instance, you get a true creative picture. Blake was often confused and was a failure when he tried to be creative in his prophetic
poems.
NIRODBARAN: You wrote to X that where life is concerned,
Shakespeare is everywhere and Blake nowhere.
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SRI AUROBINDO: Quite true.
PURANI: That is almost like Tagore's stand, his plea for variety,
covering a lot of life.
NIRODBARAN: But can one compare two or more poets and
decide who is greater?
SRI AUROBINDO: How can one?
NIRODBARAN:
You have said that Yeats is considered greater
than A. E. because of his greater poetic style.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yeats is more sustained.
NIRODBARAN:
Then there is some standard?
SRI AUROBINDO: What standard? Some say Sophocles is
greater than Shakespeare. Others favour Euripides. Still others say
Euripides is nowhere near Sophocles. How can one decide whether
Dante is greater or Shakespeare?
PURANI: It is better to ask what the criterion of great poetry is.
NIRODBARAN: All right. What is the criterion?
SRI AUROBINDO: Is there any criterion?
NIRODBARAN:
Then how to judge?
SRI AUROBINDO: One feels.
NIRODBARAN: But different people feel differently. We say Nishikanto is a great poet. Tagore may not concede it.
SRI AUROBINDO: So can there be any standard? Doesn't each
one go by his own feeling or liking or opinion?
PURANI: Abercrombie tries to give a general criterion. One
point of his I remember: if the outlook of a poet is negative or
pessimistic, his poetry can't be great. For example. Hardy's.
SRI AUROBINDO:
I don't see why. Usually, of course, great
poets are not pessimistic. They have too much life-force in them.
But generally every poet is dissatisfied with something or the other and has an element of pessimism. Sophocles said, "The best thing is
not to be born." (Laughter)
NIRODBARAN: Our Satyendra here will like this.
SATYENDRA : There is no harm in being born after one has had
liberation in the previous birth. But for people like Nirod and
myself-
NIRODBARAN: How do you know I had no liberation in my
previous birth?
SATYENDRA: If you believe that, it is all right.
PURANI: When Sri Aurobindo said that Y has a remarkable
mind, Nirodbaran said: "I have a remarkably thick physical crust."
SRI AUROBINDO (smiling): It is good to be remarkable in some
way.
NIRODBARAN: I fully agree.
PURANI: Nirodbaran doesn't seem to be satisfied with your
answers.
SRI AUROBINDO: "Sarvadharman parityajya." ("Abandon all
dharmas, all standards.") (Laughter)
NIRODBARAN: You don't complete the sentence.
SRI AUROBINDO: Because you haven't left all standards.
NIRODBARAN: As regards poetry, I have. I want to know what
your opinion is and I just abide by it.
SRI AUROBINDO: Then why not be satisfied with what I have
said?
NIRODBARAN: The trouble is that some of us are always comparing Nishikanto and J. One party says the former is greater
because of his mastery of rhythm, expression and variety, while
others say no such comparison is possible, because the two have
different domains. J is as great in the mystic field: one has to see if J
has reached as great a height of perfection in that field as Nishikanto
in his field.
SRI AUROBINDO:
All one can say is that Nishikanto has a
greater mastery over the medium and greater creative force. Why
not be satisfied with that?
NIRODBARAN: What precisely did you say about creative
poetry?
SRI AUROBINDO: That a complete picture of life is given.
Thus "The Hound of Heaven" brings intensely before us the
picture of the life of a man when pursued by God.
SATYENDRA: Thompson had some experience of what he has
written.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Oh, yes.
NIRODBARAN: It seems to me that Nishikanto is not quite a
success in what is called mystic poetry.
SRI AUROBINDO:
What do you mean by "mystic"?
NIRODBARAN: I can't define it—it is, say, Blake's poetry or J's.
SRI AUROBINDO: If you mean "occult", Nishikanto hasn't
tried much in that line. But he has succeeded in what he has tried.
NIRODBARAN: But is his work mystic?
PURANI: By "mystic" Nirodbaran means perhaps the expression of the essence of things hidden behind.
NIRODBARAN:
I mean the expression of the spiritual truth
behind by means of symbols.
SRI AUROBINDO: Symbolic, then. There are various kinds of
mystic poetry.
NIRODBARAN: It seems difficult to have creative force in mystic symbolic poetry.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is difficult, but not impossible.
NIRODBARAN: Is there any creative force in Mallarmé's famous
sonnet on the swan?
SRI AUROBINDO:
I have forgotten the poem.
NIRODBARAN: It is the poem in which he speaks of the wings
being stuck in the frozen ice so the swan can't fly.
SRI AUROBINDO:
There is no creative force there. It is descriptive and expressive. In lyrical poetry it is generally difficult to
give the creative force. It is more expressive and interpretative.
In sonnets too there is the difficulty; only in a series of sonnets
can one build up something creative, as in Meredith's "Modern
Love".
NIRODBARAN: Then the creative force can come only in narrative poems?
SRI AUROBINDO: In the epic and the drama also, and, as I have
said, in a series of sonnets. But the modern poets say that long poems
are not poetry, only in short poems you get the essence of pure
poetry.
NIRODBARAN: Some modem poets themselves have written
long poems.
SRI AUROBINDO: By "long poems" they mean long like epics.
PURANI: Thomas Hardy or somebody else has written some
short poems on the French Revolution which seem to have creative
force.
SRI AUROBINDO: Poems on the French Revolution? Who on
earth is the author?
NIRODBARAN: I suppose Tagore will score highly in the matter
of creative force. He has a lot of it.
SRI AUROBINDO: Where? Where has he created? He is essentially a lyrical poet and has no more creative force in his poetry than
in his drama. One of his long poems I remember, where a boy was
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thrown into the sea. It is very finely descriptive, but he has not
created anything.
PURANI: In "Balaka" and elsewhere he gives only a fine
description of universal life and an interpretation of nature.
NIRODBARAN: Is X creative?
SRI AUROBINDO:
I don't think he is; he is also lyrical.
NIRODBARAN: In that poem of his, "Transformation of
Nature", doesn't he give a creative force? He first describes the
aspects of ordinary consciousness and sees the utter futility of it and
slowly by turning to the Divine the transformation comes.
SRI AUROBINDO:
It is the description of an ideal. Does he
enable you to enter into that state of consciousness, live in it? Very
few poets are creative.
NIRODBARAN: But we have heard that people have been
helped in their sadhana by reading his poems.
SRI AUROBINDO: That is a different matter. You don't understand what I mean. When you read Hamlet, you become Hamlet and
you feel you are Hamlet. When you read Homer, you are Achilles
living and moving and you feel you have become Achilles. That is
what I mean by creativeness. On the other hand, in Shelley's
"Skylark", there is no skylark at all. You don't feel you have become
one with the skylark. Through that poem, Shelley has only
expressed his ideas and feelings. Take that line of his:
Our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thoughts.
It is a very fine poetical statement. But it is not creative in the
sense that it doesn't make you live in that truth or that expression.
NIRODBARAN: But in poems of Bhakti, devotion, you do feel
the Bhakti.
SRI AUROBINDO: It is a feeling only. It doesn't create a world
for you to live and move in. Feeling is not enough in order to be
creative.
PURANI: Abercrombie also says that a poem should reproduce
the experience.
SRI AUROBINDO: It depends on what you mean by experience. An idea or a thought may be an experience; feeling is also
experience.
PURANI: In comparing Shelley and Milton, Abercrombie says
that Prometheus Unbound does not have as great a theme as Paradise
Lost and so it couldn't equal the latter in greatness.
SRI AUROBINDO: It is not as great because Shelley doesn't
create anything there. But the theme is equally great.
PURANI: Abercrombie says that Milton has created living pictures of Satan and Christ.
SRI AUROBINDO: Satan is the only character he has created.
The first four books of Paradise Lost are full of creative force. But
Christ? I disagree with Abercrombie there. Milton has not created
Christ.
PURANI: About Dante he says he has created Beatrice and her
memory was always with the poet.
SRI AUROBINDO:
What about Dante's political life in
Florence? I am sure he was not thinking of Beatrice at that time.
PURANI: Abercrombie also says that a poet passes on his experience to his readers.
NIRODBARAN: But there are poets who don't experience anything they write of, nor do they understand what they write. They
are mere transcribers. J has done that. I too have done it.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Sahana also.
SATYENDRA
(looking at Nirodbaran): I see a roguish smile on his
face.
SRI AUROBINDO: He wants to ask a question or say something?
NIRODBARAN: Satyendra was telling me yesterday that he
wasn't quite clear about the definition of creative force as applied to Bhakti poems. Why shouldn't they be considered creative if one
feels Bhakti by them?
SATYENDRA: He is putting his own question into my mouth.
SRI AUROBINDO: These poems cannot be considered creative,
because you identify yourself only with the feeling and not with a
man or character as in the case of Hamlet. They do not create a world
for you. A creative poem must come out of a part of the poet's
personality and you can't help identifying yourself with the world or
the personality the poet has created or with the experience of the
poet himself; otherwise the poem is not creative. Of course, everything is creative in a general way.
PURANI: Abercrombie says a great poet transmits his experience
to the reader.
SATYENDRA:
But one can transmit without oneself having the
experience as some poets here, according to their own account,
have done.
NIRODBARAN: So
also poets can transmit or transcribe creative force without being conscious of it, and I suppose all fine poems are
transcriptions.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Yes, poets can do that, but people who have
the creative force usually make it a part of themselves, they experience the thing first and then transmit it.
NIRODBARAN: How is one to get this force?
SRI AUROBINDO:
You have it or you don't. Some poets are
born with it.
NIRODBARAN: But can't one acquire it?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, you can develop it. Most people have
it within but it may or may not come out. In Yoga, of course, it
is different. There it depends on the power of opening oneself,
NIRODBARAN: Talking of
J and Nishikanto, I find that the
latter hasn't the former's subtlety and delicacy of expression.
SRI AUROBINDO:
A poet need not have these things in order
to be great.
NIRODBARAN: No. Nishikanto always gives the impression of
power.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, power is his main element.
NIRODBARAN: X says Nishikanto lacks substance: he means
intellectual substance such as he finds in A. E. or Tagore.
PURANI: I thought Tagore's poetry hadn't much substance of
this kind; most of it is fine and decorative.
NIRODBARAN: It is rather strange that X doesn't like Yeats,
SRI AUROBINDO: He doesn't?
NIRODBARAN: He says he can't find substance in him, or
whatever substance there is can't be understood by him. He is
referring here to the symbolic poems.
SATYENDRA: Yeats has expressed his Irish mysticism.
SRI AUROBINDO: Those are his early poems. He has expressed
other things too.
NIRODBARAN: To a man like X who appreciates and understands chhanda (rhythm) so much, Yeats has no appeal! It is strange.
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He likes Arjava's poems and yet Arjava told him that he was greatly
indebted to Yeats, and so also is Amal.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Perhaps X doesn't understand English poetry sufficiently.
NIRODBARAN: But he said that Chesterton has variety in metre
and he appreciates it.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Chesterton?
NIRODBARAN: Yes, I think that if he doesn't understand a
poem, he just doesn't bother about the rest of its qualities; the
poem has no appeal for him.
SATYENDRA: Perhaps Tagore, after reading Nishikanto's book,
will change his opinion and write to him.
SRI AUROBINDO:
He has evaded the problem by writing before he has scanned the book.
NIRODBARAN : You think that Nishikanto has intellectual substnce?
SRI AUROBINDO: I believe he has.
NIRODBARAN: Purani says your "Bird of Fire" has creative
force. It is a creative symbolic poem.
SRI AUROBINDO (smiling): I don't know. (Looking at Purani) It is
for Purani to pronounce.
NIRODBARAN: He also thinks your "Shiva" has it.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Why not leave my poetry out of it? If
you want examples, there is "The Hound of Heaven", as I have
said, and there is Chesterton's "Lepanto". They have the creative force.
NIRODBARAN:
What about Arjava (J. Chadwick)?
SRI AUROBINDO:
He has none.
SRI AUROBINDO: I think Tagore's "Parash Pathar"
("Philosopher's Stone") and "Urvasie" have the creative force, though it is
not usual for him to have it. Tagore has created something here, not
character but a world, not an outer world but an inner one, a reality
of the inner life of man. It is not simply a description. And in Nishikanto's poem, "Gorurgadi" ("Bullock Cart"), the cart is real
and the man in it is real, yet the cart is both a personal one and a world-cart.
Take Shelley's "Skylark" and Keats' "Nightingale". The birds in
either poem are nothing. It is the thoughts and feelings of the poets
that have found expression and the birds tansmit those thoughts
and feelings while remaining only occasions for expressing them.
By the way, I don't understand why X says that Nishikanto has no
ideas.
NIRODBARAN: What he says is that Nishikanto lacks intellectual substance.
SRI AUROBINDO: What do you mean by that? You mean
philosophical thought?
NIRODBARAN: I think he means ideas such as A. E. has, for
instance.
SRI AUROBINDO: But he has poetical ideas and he develops
them in his poems. A poet need not have intellectual ideas to be
great. Homer has no intellectual ideas. There are only one or two
lines that contain a great thought in the first five or six books,
Otherwise the Iliad is all war and action and movement. And you
can't say that Homer is not a great poet. If you do, you'll have to
ignore many poets of the past. When Nishikanto started writing, I
said his poems were "vital", but he made great progress afterwards.
NIRODBARAN: Some of his poems are even psychic.
SRI AUROBINDO: His "Bullock Cart" is certainly psychic.
NIRODBARAN: X doesn't say that he is not a great poet, only
that he lacks one element - that's all - and he would like him to have
it.
SATYENDRA: If you want intellectual substance, I would ask
you to read one Gujarati poet named Akho. He is all Vedanta.
NIRODBARAN: X has no fancy for such poetry. This morning
had an argument with Purani over your poem "Shiva". Purani say it
has creative force, just as your "Bird of Fire" has.
PURANI: Didn't you agree with me?
NIRODBARAN: Yes, about "Bird of Fire". About the other
I
said that I didn't find creative force in it and asked, "Do you become
Shiva when you read it?"
SRI AUROBINDO: It is not necessary to become Shiva. The
point is whether you find the picture painted there to be living and
feel that Shiva is alive in the poem.
PURANI: I find it creative in that sense. It is not merely an idea of
what Shiva is or stands for that has been depicted. What I find here is
a personality, a being.
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SRI AUROBINDO: When you feel that, it means that the thing
depicted is a piece of creation. Tagore also seems to have liked this
poem very much.
NIRODBARAN: Yes, that is the only poem he liked. According
to you, then, to be creative means that what is depicted is vivid,
alive, appearing real.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.
NIRODBARAN: It seems to me that your "Rose of God" has the
creative force too.
SATYENDRA: He is trying to make you commit yourself!
(Laughter)
PURANI: If Sri Aurobindo doesn't want to commit himself,
nobody can succeed in that game.
NIRODBARAN: I didn't have any sly intention. We only want to
grasp the point clearly.
PURANI: Nirodbaran says that if there is poetic force, it will be
felt; I say that not everybody will feel it. "The Hound of Heaven"
won't be appreciated by all.
NIRODBARAN: By "everybody" if you mean the masses, of
course not. But I meant that a poet or a literary man who has a
taste for poetry will feel the force there.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, unless he has a prejudice.
PURANI: There are persons like A. C. who may not find creative force there. He is a literary man, a Ph.D. from Oxford.
SRI AUROBINDO:
In philosophy?
PURANI: No, in literature; he did research in ancient English
poetry.
SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, that is the skeleton of English poetry.
NIRODBARAN: Sahana says some of Tagore's dramas have
creative force.
SRI AUROBINDO: Which?
NIRODBARAN: She doesn't remember which. But don't you
think "Sacrifice" has it?
SRI AUROBINDO: When people talk of Tagore's dramas, they
mean particularly "Sacrifice". Of course, that is the best of the lot,
but there too the characters are not living. They have all come out of
his mind. He has the idea that things should be like this or like that
and he makes them according to his idea.
NIRODBARAN: I remember another poem of Tagore, "I will
not let you go", which seems to be creative.
PURANI : It is the same as the other one, "God's Retribution" -
a fine description.
SRI AUROBINDO:
The girl there is also fashioned from his
mind. A girl doesn't behave in that way. ,
NIRODBARAN: What about Madhusudan's Bengali work,
"The Slaying of Meghnad"? That surely has a lot of creativeness.
SRI AUROBINDO: A poor creation. What sort of Ravana has
he created? It is an outline of an idealised non Rakshasic Rakshasa,
He makes Ravana weep profusely. That is highly amusing. Bengalis at one time were very fond of weeping. I think it
was Romesh Dutt who translated the story of Savitri from the
Mahabharata and portrayed her as weeping whereas in the original
epic there is not a trace of tears. Even when her heart was being sawn
in two, not a single tear came to her eyes. By making her weep, he
took away the very strength on which Savitri was built.
PURANI: He wanted to make the story realistic, perhaps.
SRI AUROBINDO:
He thought Vyasa had made a mess of it.
Even present-day Bengalis are fond of weeping. They expect everybody to weep. When Barin was condemned, they reported that
Sarojini wept and that when I met Sarojini I too began lamenting
and crying! Barin had to contradict the report.
PURANI: Also when Manmohan died, some people thought
you were mourning him.
SRI AUROBINDO: We brothers, I am afraid, were not so passionately fond of each other. (Laughter)
Yes, I was talking of Madhusudan. I don't say that his poem is not
fine or that it has no force or thought in it. It is an epic-but it is not
creative. It has no vital substance.
PURANI: People say he tried to imitate Milton.
SRI AUROBINDO: Milton, Homer and everybody else.
Nirodbaran read to Sri Aurobindo Tagore's letter to Nishikanto praising
his book. Sri Aurobindo was very glad and exclaimed, "Oh", and at the
end
said, "That is wonderful!" During the sponging when Satyendra and others
came in Purani said, "'Nirodbaran is feeling triumphant today." Satyendra
didn't understand and looked sideways. He didn't know yet about Tagore's
letter.
SRI AUROBINDO: Because of Tagore's eulogy on Nishikanto's
poems. He has acknowledged his defeat.
SATYENDRA: He has written again?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, where is the letter?
Then the letter was produced. Sri Aurobindo translated it into English
and said, "You can't say more than that."
NIRODBARAN: Purani is also triumphant because he thought
Tagore would write again.
PURANI:
Yes, I felt that. Tagore is very polite in that way.
Anyhow he has been forced to admit Nishikanto's quality.
SATYENDRA:
In view of his first letter, there seemed no chance
of his writing anything.
NIRODBARAN:
Now he finds that his two grievances have been
satisfied; first his "common people" and then the variety because
Nishikanto has made it a representative collection.
SRI AUROBINDO: His former letter meant, "Yes, you have
written something but you are not a poet." (Then addressing
Purani) This "common people" is very stupid, it seems. I have
been reading the quotations you have given me. I find them clearly
mystic. I don't know how these people can give a realistic meaning
to them. Instead of taking the verses in their obvious mystic
significance, they create all sorts of meanings — rita is water,
fighting between Dravidians and Aryans, etc.
NIRODBARAN: I asked Nolini yesterday what people like
Tagore mean by saying that only Nishikanto has an easy mastery
over the language while others have not. He says that he means that
our language is rather forced, not spontaneous or easy.
SRI AUROBINDO:
"Forced" means something created by the
mind?
NIRODBARAN:
I believe so.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Then it is not true. It is, on the other hand,
something coming down from above by inspiration.
NIRODBARAN:
Nolini also says that Nishikanto follows the
Bengali tradition while Dilip and others have cut a new line and
one has to enter into the new spirit to appreciate it. Some people
here say that we make things deliberately difficult.
SRI AUROBINDO: It is not true; of course it is not necessary to
make things unintelligible in order to be a poet.
Page--377
PURANI: (after some time): Nishikanto can now advertise Tagore's
opinion.
NIRODBARAN: Yes, Tarapada has already asked him to at
once send any appreciation. When I took the letter to Nishikanto
and said it was from Tagore he asked, "Why again?" He expected
another cold reception, but after reading the letter he became
jubilant and said, "See how promptly he has replied, while to
others like jyoti he has kept quiet." (Sri Aurobindo enjoyed this very
much.)
SRI AUROBINDO:
Why does X say that Tagore has been rude
to Nishikanto?
NIRODBARAN: Where? I haven't seen anything.
SRI AUROBINDO:
He has written that to me. Also that Tagore
has said that Sisir Mitra came here out of emotion.
NIRODBARAN: But Tagore has written only two letters to
Nishikanto and there was no mention of these things.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Then perhaps it may be in some other connection. But I didn't find any rudeness in his letters. By "emotion"
Tagore means bhava, I suppose. But I don't understand what is
wrong with emotion.
At this point Purani came.
PURANI (after a while): I verified the story of the bull. The bull's
name is Bholanath. Lalji himself has seen it perform. It can even pick
out a man whose name has been pronounced to it. If a photograph is
hidden in somebody's pocket and the bull is asked to detect the man,
it can.
SRI AUROBINDO: By name also?
PURANI: Yes.
SRI AUROBINDO: That is something remarkable. Must be an
intuitive bull. But how can it pick out an unknown person knowing
only his name even by intuition? Even a Yogi can't do it. He can
know a certain person by first seeing him but he can't know him by
knowing only his name.
NIRODBARAN:
It is Shiva's bull perhaps.
PURANI: It is also called Bholanath.
Page-378
DR. BECHARLAL: The giving of a person's name could have
been prearranged with the party.
PURANI: How? Even in an unknown crowd, the bull can do
that feat.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Animals have vital intuition and they find
things out by it, as man does by thought. You know about the horses
being trained to do arithmetic in Germany.
PURANI: Yes, Maeterlinck himself wrote about it.
SRI AUROBINDO: Did he?
PURANI: Yes.
SRI AUROBINDO: It was not only one horse, but a group of
them. Animals can be trained to do many things and they can be
made familiar with sounds and names by repeated utterances. But to
pick out an unknown man only by his name is remarkable. Can't
explain it.
(While being sponged)
I read about another medical discovery in
the Sunday Times. Some doctor says that an attack of asthma can be
instantly relieved by inhaling from a pot of honey. The relief lasts
for half an hour.
PURANI: It is very good.
SATYENDRA: But one will be tempted to eat it.
SRI AUROBINDO: J will finish a pot in one night.
(Laughter)
NIRODBARAN: Not possible during an acute attack because the
attack is so severe that one is almost choked up in distress.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Then she will finish it between the attacks.
NIRODBARAN: That is possible.
SRI AUROBINDO: Honey seems to contain many chemicals.
NIRODBARAN: What are they?
SRI AUROBINDO: I have forgotten and I am not a scientist.
SATYENDRA: It is good to forget. Sir. Scientists also have to
forget at tirnes.
NIRODBARAN:
In Ayurveda honey has many properties.
SATYENDRA: Yes, you had an intuition about it?
SRI AUROBINDO: How?
SATYENDRA: Honey and brinjal were two things he found by intuition. (Laughter)
SRI AUROBlNDO: Why don't you find something for my knee?
SATYENDRA: That is outer. Sir—though, of course, they do apply hot brinjal over eczemas.
NIRODBARAN: That is for heat.
Page-379
SATYENDRA: Then why don't they simply apply hot water!
But no, it should always be brinjal! (Laughter)
Dr. Rao arrived and said that some trouble was still going on over the loss
of some instruments. Nirodbaran told Sri Aurobindo about it. So when Rao
came Sri Aurobindo spoke to him.
SRI AUROBINDO:
I hear you are being instrumented?
DR. RAO: It is the same old thing, Sir. They say the superintendent is to blame. However, I believe within that it will be all
right by your blessings. Even if some bad things happen, I will say
that they are also the blessings of God.
SRI AUROBINDO (after a while, smiling): Yes, when anything bad
happens you call it God's blessings while if anything good happens,
you take the credit and become egoistic.
DR. RAO: No, Sir. (A little later) As you raise the question, we do
say that. (Laughter)
PURANI: Have you heard that N. R. Sirkar and Kiran S. Roy
are coming here?
SRI AUROBINDO: What for?
PURANI: For Darshan. And Nazimuddin also.
SRI AUROBINDO: Nazimuddin?
PURANI: Yes, he in August, the others in February. Nolini is
wondering where to put them up.
NIRODBARAN: They have got permission?
PURANI : No, they have written for permission. L'Hotel
d'Europe seems to Nolini the only place.
SRI AUROBINDO: Baron speaks of it as being quite up to the
mark.
PURANI: Yes, they have rebuilt it very nicely. I don't know why
Nazimuddin has taken the fancy to come. Perhaps he thinks, "If Sir Akbar can come, why not I, who am also a Sir?" (Laughter)
NIRODBARAN: The supramental seems to be descending.
SRI AUROBINDO: Who knows, Fazlul Huq may come one day.
NIRODBARAN: Then the Descent will be complete. But he is
more likely than others to come. He is more plastic- he was a
Congressman, next a Muslim Leaguer and then a Yogi.
Page-380
SRI AUROBINDO: He belongs to the Overmind then.
NIRODBARAN: Dilip told me that Sirkar, B. C. Roy and Kiran
S. Roy used to take an interest in the Ashram.
SRI AUROBINDO: I see! Somebody also talked to Nazimuddin
I heard, or at least he was present at a talk about the Ashram.
PURANI:
There is one Hemen Roy Chowdhury, Zamindar of
Mymensingh, in whose house you stayed. The name of his place is
"Tress and Shrubs".
SRI AUROBINDO: No, "Trees and Shrubs".
(Laughter) Is he still
alive? (Laughter)
NIRODBARAN:
You are sending people to the other world!
(Laughter)
PURANI:
His nephew has written. So he may be dead.
SRI AUROBINDO:
He was at that time an energetic young man,
a revolutionary. I thought by now he might be dead.
NIRODBARAN:
This is the third time you have said that. Sirkar
has gone to Wardha.
SRI AUROBINDO: He is trying to enter the Congress again?
NIRODBARAN: Looks like it, and he is placating everybody: the Hindu Mahasabha,
the Bengal Congress. He justifies the Mahasabha and says that Bengalis have reason to be dissatisfied
with Congress.
SRI AUROBINDO:
And he has reason to be dissatisfied with
Huq, and Huq has reason to turn him out? That is a yogic attitude.
He also seems to belong to the Overmind. (Laughter)
NIRODBARAN: I went to Dilip today. He asked me if it was true
that you had said that the spirit of your Tapasya is behind the Hindu
Sabha movement.
SRI
AUROBINDO: What did you say?
NIRODBARAN: I said that I didn't know. It came out in the
paper under the name of the secretary, so it may be true.
SRI AUROBINDO: Who said that?
NIRODBARAN:
Since it was the secretary, it may be Nolini.
PURANI:
No, Anilbaran, I think. Perhaps it was written privately to somebody and they have published it.
SRI AUROBINDO
(after some time): Who knows, the spirit of my
Tapasya may be behind the Khaksar movement also. The Divine
Force is everywhere.
NIRODBARAN:
I told Dilip all that you had said about poetry.
SRI AUROBINDO:
What was that?
Page-381
NIRODBARAN:
About creative force etc. He says Tagore's letter has a double value as he had to praise Nishikanto in spite of
himself. Dilip says it is very funny how people make contradictory
statements. As for Satyen Datta's innovations and discoveries in
rhythm, Tagore appreciates them very much but when we make
these experiments, he says, "What is all this nonsense they are doing
about rhythm?"
SRI AUROBINDO: Tagore himself made departures in metre?
NIRODBARAN:
Yes, his matra-vritta and swara-vritta were quite
new. He can do everything new—in his drama, music, art, but
others can't.
SRI AUROBINDO: No, they must follow the eternal ancient
path.
PURANI: Dilip told me just now that A. E. moves him very
much. He has a great depth, he says.
SRI AUROBINDO:
To move Dilip? (Laughter) But many people
don't like him.
NIRODBARAN:
Satycndra also likes A. E. very much, more
than Yeats because of his spiritual substance.
SRI AUROBINDO: He is a spiritual poet while Yeats is occult. Of
course, A. E. has a far richer mind and has more intellectual power.
PURANI:
Yes, I have read his essays on Irish national reconstruction. I was glad to find that he has such a grasp over things like
agriculture.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Yes, his personality is many-sided and various. He has done more than
anybody for Irish national reconstruction, while Yeats has only power of imagination.
NIRODBARAN: A. E. is a better critic also.
SRI AUROBINDO:
I haven't read his criticism. Yeats is a bad
critic. He is nothing else, only a good poet, a very great poet. His
character doesn't seem up to very much; he is said to be vain and
proud.
When the Mother came, Purani read the radio news which stated that
N. N. Sirkar had taken up spinning.
SRI AUROBINDO : Oh! N. R. Sirkar?
Page-382
PURANI: No, it is N. N. Sirkar.
SRI AUROBINDO (after his walk): Are you sure it is not N. R.
Sirkar? That seems to be more likely now that he is trying to enter
the Congress. But why is he coming here then? Of course, if he
doesn't spin himself, he will get it done by others. (Laughter)
NIRODBARAN: He has also proposed an ad hoc committee.
SRI AUROBINDO: If any agreement comes out, though there is
no chance of it, it is only by that sort of committee, not by the
Constituent Assembly.
NIRODBARAN: V is trying to come in August with Sisir Mitra, I
am told.
SRI AUROBINDO: How? She has been refused.
NIRODBARAN:
No, she was to be discouraged, I heard.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Yes, but the Mother meant practical refusal.
NIRODBARAN: X doesn't like the idea of her coming. He says
she hasn't changed at all and she will only disparage us after her
return. Anilbaran says she must have changed.
SRI AUROBINDO: Anilbaran is optimistic.
NIRODBARAN: He can't forget her motherly caress.
SRI AUROBINDO:
That was because of politics.
NIRODBARAN: Nazimuddin got interested through Sir Akbar
perhaps. He may have met him when he went to Dacca.
SRI AUROBINDO:
No, Suren Ghose gave him The Life
Divine.
NIRODBARAN: Allah Bux has now turned to Sikandar Hyat
Khan.
SRI AUROBINDO: What else can he do after the refusal of the
Working Committee to support him?
NIRODBARAN:
It seems that the Sukkur riot is a big affair. 146
Hindus killed!
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is not a single riot but rioting in
various villages.
PURANI: Nolini was saying that while he finds Nishikanto
progressing in poetry, X is almost stagnant and seems to have fallen
into a groove.
NIRODBARAN: X has never complained to you as he has to us
about his repetitions?
SRI AUROBINDO: No!
PURANI: Is he so satisfied with his own creations that these
defects escape him? Very surprising!
Page-383
NIRODBARAN:
You were speaking about "characteristicness"
of poetry. Dilip says that J's poems are distinctive and we also agree,
while Nishikanto gives an impression of something familiar. (Sri
Aurobindo kept silent.)
Purani showed Sri Aurobindo four pictures of Buddha's life by Nandalal
Bose published in the Bombay Times.
SRI AUROBINDO
(after seeing them): They are not realistic pictures. Buddha remains young till the end. His Nirvana doesn't look
like Nirvana but like going to sleep, nor does it show that he had
indigestion at the time.
There were a few pictures of Mogul art about which Sri Aurobindo said
"Very fine." Then he came across a coloured picture of Krishna playing on
the flute and Gopis dancing, in the usual modern style.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Ah, this is a masterpiece-bacchanal! (Laughter)
PURANI: I didn't want you to see that.
SRI AUROBINDO
(after 'some time): Why do they say that
Buddha, after passing through four dhyanas, entered Nirvana?
How do they know it?
NIRODBARAN: That is the Pali text. All of them say that.
SRI AUROBINDO: Now they are trying to prove that sukara
khanda was not meat but some vegetable root which caused his
death; khanda meaning root.
NIRODBARAN:
My Pali teacher used to give another ingenious
explanation. He said that sukara means what has been cooked well,
and many good things jumbled and cooked together may act as a
poison. It is not khanda but maddava, a stew-like preparation.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Then it should not be sukara but sukrita as
the adjective.
NIRODBARAN: In Pali it may be sukara.
SRI AUROBINDO: It is your Pali teacher's explanation. It may
be Gujarati also; sukara meaning "what are you doing"? (Laughter)
Page-384
After this, some discussion followed about Aryans, Dravidians and
Tamilians.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Most of the Tamilians have a straight nose, very few have a flat nose.
SRI AUROBINDO
(leading the talk): I have finished Nishikanto's book. I don't see why Dilip says that he has no intellectual substance.
PURANI:
Nishikanto was telling me about it just now. He says the poems at the end of the book contain substance.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Why only those? The earlier poems have it too.
NIRODBARAN:
That was Dilip's earlier statement. I don't know if he would still hold that view.
SRI AUROBINDO(after his walk): You have seen that Gandhi has been
authorised by the Working Committee to negotiate with the Viceroy. As a matter of fact
he is already doing it. He has been given the sole power.
PURANI:
Perhaps the Viceroy is coming down now. The Times comment suggests that. Have you seen it? It says that
Jinnah's demands are unreasonable. That may be the British Govenment's view too.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Yes, the Times is their official organ.
PURANI: There is a reason too. It seems Russia and Japan are
trying to come to a settlement. In that case they may have designs on Inidia. Even if the Muslims combine with the Congress, still another
difficulty remains - that of the Princes.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Yes.
NIRODBARAN: Gandhi says that he has no objection to the
Princes if they remain like the King of England.
SRI AUROBINDO (with a smile): If the Princes remain at all, I am
for stinting them any power. If a Prince is capable or if he has
capable ministers, he can do a lot of good which a parliament can't.
NIRODBARAN:
Yes, moreover the Princes are getting wise.
PURANI: The present Gaekwar has already curtailed a large
amount of his privy purse. Sayaji Rao was bad in that way. He
to grab a heavy amount for his private purse but at the same
time he did a lot of public works.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he didn't starve the public services.
NIRODBARAN:
Only, he spent a lot of money in going frequently to Europe, and has also erected a lot of buildings.
SRI AUROBINDO: His European visits and the buildings have
been good for the State.
PURANI: Sir Sikandar has frankly admitted that the question is
after all about the loaves and fishes of office and is no religious at
all.
NIRODBARAN:
The Muslims don't really trust the Hindus, it
seems. Even Sir Akbar said he couldn't trust Gandhi.
SRI AUROBINDO: He doesn't trust Gandhi because of his way
of life and philosophy.
PURANI: It seems The Life Divine is finished now.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Not yet; only the first draft is done.
PURANI: The Psychology of Social Development won't take much
time.
SRI AUROBINDO: No.
NIRODBARAN: Is that the next book?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. (Then looking at Purani) The Ideal
of
Human Unity will have to be rewritten perhaps. Things have changed and Hitler is mainly responsible.
Page-386
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